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Jeff_pony
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Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England

PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:45pm     
Well I guess an end-user for phoenix is some one who wants to browse the web. Which is what phoenix does, web browse. If it wasent for Devs Linux would have never happerned, and look at the market share linux has gained through disgruntled users.
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andkon2
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Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:49pm     
Jeff_pony wrote:
Well what other type of community is there? I would imagine the 4835 registered users of this forum cant all be devs. And the user stats for web browsers is unbalanced by how IE is distrobuted.


Most people dont go off and join forums to discuss browsers. Not for IE. And how are webstats wrong? To try to deny that IE is in the very heavy majority is unsubstantiated.
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andkon2
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PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:51pm     
Jeff_pony wrote:
Well I guess an end-user for phoenix is some one who wants to browse the web. Which is what phoenix does, web browse. If it wasent for Devs Linux would have never happerned, and look at the market share linux has gained through disgruntled users.


However, there arent that many disgruntled users. Most people dont like or cant handle computers. For them Windows is as good as its going to get. Same with browsers.
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Jeff_pony
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PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:56pm     
Well then thats there choice, but as a informed computer user I choose otherwise. Those sort of users wouldent use opera either.

I dont disagree that IE isnt dominant, but thats because its bundled with windows. Who knows who would come out on top if things were from the same starting blocks.
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andkon2
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PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 4:03pm     
Jeff_pony wrote:
Well then thats there choice, but as a informed computer user I choose otherwise. Those sort of users wouldent use opera either.

I dont disagree that IE isnt dominant, but thats because its bundles with windows. Who knows who would come out on top if things were from the same starting blocks.


If a product is better than the other, it will be downloaded. A person isnt going to download a far more superior product because they have one an inferior one already. Also, remember that Netscape 3.x and 4.x were worse than their IE counterparts. It wasnt just new users who had IE but many people who switched to a free browser, that BTW supported more standards.
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jgraham
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Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK

PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 4:08pm     
andkon2 wrote:

What am I trying to prove? That Mozilla isnt for the "community." It makes a browser that is mediocre (and even unpromoted) for 95% of the web (the 95% that is competative as far as software goes).
'

Heh. You're so funny. It's that manipulating the figures trick again. 95% of the web uses Internet Explorer. Gecko has about double the market share of Opera. Gecko based browsers are also included in almost all distributions of Linux (the only operating system with a vaugely significant market share which doesn't have a vendor produced browser bundled or soon to be bundled). Various parts of Gecko are also used in a huge range of other products, more in fact than appear on the linked page. It sounds like it's doing alright for a mediocre (and even unpromoted) browser.

dumbass '2' wrote:

http://www.mozdev.org/logs/top50.html proves me ever so right. 30.79% of the pageviews of the projects were for THEMES??? Is that the biggest problem Mozilla has??? Themes??? The last time I checked, a browser without "nice" appearance but still works rules over one that looks pretty but has deep faults. It is no wonder that people in the win/mac have not switched over to Gecko. It isnt worth the download. How sad that is. Crappy as IE is, Gecko doesnt have enought steam for people to give 10MB worth of trust (or a damn bloated 30MB if you are talking about Netscape)...

Yeah, I've replied to most of this before. Mozilla/ gecko based browsers = world's most used non Microsoft browsers. Which oddly enough, probably means something in this context since people who use non-default browsers are likely to pick one they like.

So, themes.mozdev.org has more hits than (say) livehttpheaders.mozdev.org! Really! People like to customise the appearance of their browsers?! In fact you explained earlier in this thread that some of Opera can be customised. Shall we complain that more people use the customise preferences in opera than use small-device embedded opera browsers? Or is it, in fact, an irrelevant comparison? To twist things further still, the fact that themes.mozdev.org gets so many hits shows what a sucess the browser itself is - if Mozilla were simply a technology preview with no functionality or usability then no one would bother downloading themes for it...

dumbass '2' wrote:

I am bound to ask, what the hell is Mozilla's goal? Standards are obviously not as big as they used to be as IE is now supporting them (somewhat but satisfactorily). "Community" I have now shown is certainly not a goal either.


See, now you're just being a boring troll, looking to extract worthless replies from people like me who should probably use the time either:
a) Do some real life work
b) Help some people on Mozillazine
c) Triage some bugs
d) Learn a little more about the code
e) Sleep
Or something else.

You have really shown nothing except an uncanny ability to ignore vast sections of reasonable critisism and an inability to construct reasoned arguments. I count items b,c and d above as being relevant to the Mozilla community. If community wasn't a goal of the project (it probably was, since it almost has to be in any sort of open source project looking for volunteer help) then it has certianly happened anyway.

Standards, by the way, are every bit as big as they ever were. Your website suggests you know a little about webdesign and every web designer I've ever heard about wishes all browsers had better standards support. tInternet Explorer, for example doesn't support XHTML at all and has poor support for much of CSS 2 and a lot of CSS 1. Mozilla seems, at the moment, be in front in this regard and it certianly isn't regressing support in an attempt to gain some short term popularity.

Note that (the previous link notwithstanding), I don't have anything against opera at all. I'm merely pointing out that your arguments (which I suspect are designed mainly to get a response) are both irrelevant and inaccurate. Unless you say something worthwhile in the future, regard my silence in reply to your posts as a general distain for your writing.
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andkon2
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Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 4:27pm     
jgraham wrote:
andkon2 wrote:

What am I trying to prove? That Mozilla isnt for the "community." It makes a browser that is mediocre (and even unpromoted) for 95% of the web (the 95% that is competative as far as software goes).
'

Heh. You're so funny. It's that manipulating the figures trick again. 95% of the web uses Internet Explorer. It has about double the market share of Opera. Gecko based browsers are also included in almost all distributions of Linux (the only operating system with a vaugely significant market share which doesn't have a vendor produced browser bundled or soon to be bundled). Various parts of Gecko are also used in a huge range of other products, more in fact than appear on the linked page. It sounds like it's doing alright for a mediocre (and even unpromoted) browser.


Oh heavens! Gecko has a WHOLE percent! Wow. I am impressed. Of course, IE still has 90+% so your point is??...

Quote:

dumbass '2' wrote:

http://www.mozdev.org/logs/top50.html proves me ever so right. 30.79% of the pageviews of the projects were for THEMES??? Is that the biggest problem Mozilla has??? Themes??? The last time I checked, a browser without "nice" appearance but still works rules over one that looks pretty but has deep faults. It is no wonder that people in the win/mac have not switched over to Gecko. It isnt worth the download. How sad that is. Crappy as IE is, Gecko doesnt have enought steam for people to give 10MB worth of trust (or a damn bloated 30MB if you are talking about Netscape)...

Yeah, I've replied to most of this before. Mozilla/ gecko based browsers = world's most used non Microsoft browsers. Which oddly enough, probably means something in this context since people who use non-default browsers are likely to pick one they like.


Let's say that's the case. IE still has 90+% browser share.

Quote:

So, themes.mozdev.org has more hits than (say) livehttpheaders.mozdev.org! Really! People like to customise the appearance of their browsers?! In fact you explained earlier in this thread that some of Opera can be customised. Shall we complain that more people use the customise preferences in opera than use small-device embedded opera browsers? Or is it, in fact, an irrelevant comparison? To twist things further still, the fact that themes.mozdev.org gets so many hits shows what a sucess the browser itself is - if Mozilla were simply a technology preview with no functionality or usability then no one would bother downloading themes for it...


Amazing. 1.2 million hits (not unqiue users) over how many years? Bravo. Of course when i talked about Opera customizability, I wasnt merely referring to making it prettier but that Opera has actual uses when it comes to customizing.

Quote:

dumbass '2' wrote:

I am bound to ask, what the hell is Mozilla's goal? Standards are obviously not as big as they used to be as IE is now supporting them (somewhat but satisfactorily). "Community" I have now shown is certainly not a goal either.


See, now you're just being a boring troll, looking to extract worthless replies from people like me who should probably use the time either:
a) Do some real life work
b) Help some people on Mozillazine
c) Triage some bugs
d) Learn a little more about the code
e) Sleep
Or something else.


I believe you didnt answer the question. What is Mozilla for if it has such mediocre results after 5 years? Don't call me a troll, answer the question. I know it's hard because it doesnt really have an answer, but try to use some brain power on that one.

Quote:

You have really shown nothing except an uncanny ability to ignore vast sections of reasonable critisism and an inability to construct reasoned arguments. I count items b,c and d above as being relevant to the Mozilla community. If community wasn't a goal of the project (it probably was, since it almost has to be in any sort of open source project looking for volunteer help) then it has certianly happened anyway.


What's your definition of community? Developers or mainstream win/mac users?

Quote:

Standards, by the way, are every bit as big as they ever were. Your website suggests you know a little about webdesign and every web designer I've ever heard about wishes all browsers had better standards support. tInternet Explorer, for example doesn't support XHTML at all and has poor support for much of CSS 2 and a lot of CSS 1. Mozilla seems, at the moment, be in front in this regard and it certianly isn't regressing support in an attempt to gain some short term popularity.


and other "logical" inline elements are utterly more trouble than they are worth. However, unlike a lot of Mozilla fans, I can actually validate my website, since we are talking about standards.

The standards drivel is irrelavant. As long as Opera can display pages that have standards, then everything is fine.

"Actually, Opera 7 is more CSS compliant than Mozilla. There's a link floating around on these forums which links to a page that tests the various aspects of CSS. Mozilla lost points because it uses a Mozilla-specific syntax. "

Quote:

Note that (the previous link notwithstanding), I don't have anything against opera at all. I'm merely pointing out that your arguments (which I suspect are designed mainly to get a response) are both irrelevant and inaccurate. Unless you say something worthwhile in the future, regard my silence in reply to your posts as a general distain for your writing.


Okay. 90+% of web users use IE. A single percent uses Mozilla. Wow. 5 years and a single percent? http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html thats a nice site as well...
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Stefan
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Joined: 05 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 1:05am     
andkon2 wrote:
How much has Gecko/Netscape browser share increased in the last 5 years? What, it decreased?


Gecko 5 has only increased the last 5 years
That Gecko 4 has just decreased I can only applaude. It was/is an awfully bad browser.
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 1:20am     
andkon2 wrote:

"Actually, Opera 7 is more CSS compliant than Mozilla. There's a link floating around on these forums which links to a page that tests the various aspects of CSS. Mozilla lost points because it uses a Mozilla-specific syntax. "


Opera 7 does have a really good CSS implementation, much better then eg Opera 6 & IE 6, and it's the first browser in years to even come close to Mozilla.
In fact it's the first non-gecko based browser I've seen where I DON'T EXPECT advanced CSS to compleatly fall appart.

However Opera 7 does not have better CSS support then Gecko. If you belive that you have no clue about how to write CSS taking advantage of it's advanced features.
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phanty
Mozilla Fanatic


Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 28
Location: East Sussex

PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 3:07am     Annoying 12 year olds
Jeff_pony wrote:
Who cares I won an award! Shame he wont show his face in the picture though, I guess its because he?s so sure of his convictions.


You are honoured by such an award! Personally I find it difficult to reconcile his "fire breathing wild man of the internet" image with the fact that in the picture he's wearing a beige jumper. Could just be me though.
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andkon3
Mozilla Newbie


Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 4:55am     
What wrong with my jumper? my mother knitted it for me!

I would also like to apologise for being a arse and talking drivel for so long, please forgive these actions, im just a frustrated opera user, and its not like I could take it out on IE users as they have 90% of the market share (according to my local corner shop owner, and a man I talked to in the park). I will try not to make stuff up in the future, but its hard not to when your trying to seek attention I just want people to notice me and take me seriously. Also I spent so long making those new mozilla graphics but nobody thought they were funny, so I had to come up with a reason for there existance I apologise for any offence and will try to stop linking to them.

I think in hindsight I have earned this http://www.dumbass.com/award.jpg
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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.


Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 6:12am     
andkon2 wrote:
djst wrote:
Phoenix is great, and is used by lots of end-users already. I personally don't like SeaMonkey because I think it's bloated. That's exactly why I love Phoenix. And I'm doing my part to help the project go mainstream. What exactly is your definition of an end-user product? Would you consider a freeware FTP client an end-user product? Even though the author doesn't provide support, it's used by a lot of end-users if it's good.


Lots of endusers? Any stats on how many Phoenix browsers have been downloaded by any chance? Certainly not too many to make a giant dent in the IE dominated landscape.

Phoenix is not a thread for IE yet, no. But Phoenix is just in version 0.5 so far. And you have to admit that Phoenix looks a lot more promising than Mozilla SeaMonkey in terms of usability. I still don't understand why you put so much effort in trying to convince the whole community that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you realize that no one in here care about your opinion in this matter?
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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.


Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 6:17am     
andkon2 wrote:
Oh heavens! Gecko has a WHOLE percent! Wow. I am impressed. Of course, IE still has 90+% so your point is??...

And what is your point? That Microsoft has more aggressive marketing and dominates the browser market? My point is that Gecko is more standards-compliant than then MSIE engine.
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andkon2
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Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 9:03am     
Stefan wrote:
andkon2 wrote:
How much has Gecko/Netscape browser share increased in the last 5 years? What, it decreased?


Gecko 5 has only increased the last 5 years
That Gecko 4 has just decreased I can only applaude. It was/is an awfully bad browser.


You misunderstand. Overall Netscape dominance has gone down. This means even LESS NN 4.x users upgraded to Gecko than the total Netscape dominance. They most likely went to explorer.
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andkon2
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PostPosted: Wed 12th Mar 2003 9:05am     Re: Annoying 12 year olds
phanty wrote:
Jeff_pony wrote:
Who cares I won an award! Shame he wont show his face in the picture though, I guess its because he?s so sure of his convictions.


You are honoured by such an award! Personally I find it difficult to reconcile his "fire breathing wild man of the internet" image with the fact that in the picture he's wearing a beige jumper. Could just be me though.


It's called a sweater. You know, those things you put on when it's chilly.
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