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bob_seb
Mozilla Fanatic
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Lyon, France
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 Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:35am
| dumbass wrote: |
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The point with this is that Mozilla does not offer up to par software for 95% of web users. Imagine Mozilla/Mozilla-based-offsprinf without tabs and you have nothing. Great five years work though. (Say, those Opera fellows could do tabs and a whole new browser in a single year... Imagine that....)
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I think you're not here anymore, but :
You know, the mozilla project is more than just a browser. In fact, the browser, the mail client, etc are the emmerged part of the iceberg. The real power of Mozilla is XUL, XBL, and standard compliance. As a proof, take a look at mozdev, and count how many projects was created thanks to Mozilla technologies, I think it is awesome and it is more than just the browser. In five years, I don't know were Mozilla the browser will be, but I think Mozilla the technologies will be far away beyond others...
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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 4:37am
| dumbass wrote: |
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Where did you read that Phoenix is not for end-users?
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http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/ doenst looks to user friendly too me...
"For your testing pleasure"
"Phoenix build instructions"
"We track bugs using Bugzilla"
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I asked you where you read that Phoenix is not for end-users, not to make your own conclusions.
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:27pm
| bob_seb wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
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The point with this is that Mozilla does not offer up to par software for 95% of web users. Imagine Mozilla/Mozilla-based-offsprinf without tabs and you have nothing. Great five years work though. (Say, those Opera fellows could do tabs and a whole new browser in a single year... Imagine that....)
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I think you're not here anymore, but :
You know, the mozilla project is more than just a browser. In fact, the browser, the mail client, etc are the emmerged part of the iceberg. The real power of Mozilla is XUL, XBL, and standard compliance. As a proof, take a look at mozdev, and count how many projects was created thanks to Mozilla technologies, I think it is awesome and it is more than just the browser. In five years, I don't know were Mozilla the browser will be, but I think Mozilla the technologies will be far away beyond others...
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http://www.mozdev.org/projects.html
Those are all the projects right? Okay now let's see here. You said mozdev projects are thanks to Mozilla. Well, yeah. They are all plugins or some sort of addons to Mozilla. There are VERY VERY FEW non-Mozilla dependant app (that are useful).
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:28pm
| djst wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
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Where did you read that Phoenix is not for end-users?
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http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/ doenst looks to user friendly too me...
"For your testing pleasure"
"Phoenix build instructions"
"We track bugs using Bugzilla"
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I asked you where you read that Phoenix is not for end-users, not to make your own conclusions.
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It's not a conclusion; it's called a fact. Bugs, build instructions, and testing are not words associated usually with "user friendly" or "end-user"
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:30pm
Phoenix hasn?t reached 1.0 yet, so shouldn?t be though of as finished yet. Though to be honest it works really well. And all the above things you have stated are what?s involved with using open source software.
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Phoenix
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:36pm
| kerz wrote: |
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Sigh, we did this once. Don't come back until you can learn to listen to what people are saying, and actually debate without invoking nazis or communism. Until then, you're done here. Have a nice day, please drive through!
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I havent invoked nazis or communism. I used it as an example of getting an dumbass Award.
I find it extremely unbecoming and hypocritical of open source that one actually cannot have open views. It's especially rude to censor me right before I can actually answer other people's questions. Don't worry though, I won't stop until I finish what I intended to say.
Open source should have nothing to fear from open views, one would hope.
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:38pm
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
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Phoenix hasn?t reached 1.0 yet, so shouldn?t be though of as finished yet. Though to be honest it works really well. And all the above things you have stated are what?s involved with using open source software.
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Well then! Can I expect Phoenix to be paraded as an end-user product? Of course not. Mark my words, Netscape simply won't allow that.
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 2:43pm
I guess its what you mean by a end user product. Ive used phoenix for a while now and I have found it to be stable and fast. I suppose its a end user product for people who have experiance of computing, and some unzipping and file moving is involved, I can live with that.
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bob_seb
Mozilla Fanatic
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Lyon, France
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:03pm
| andkon2 wrote: |
http://www.mozdev.org/projects.html
Those are all the projects right? Okay now let's see here. You said mozdev projects are thanks to Mozilla. Well, yeah. They are all plugins or some sort of addons to Mozilla. There are VERY VERY FEW non-Mozilla dependant app (that are useful).
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Well, the fact that something isn't useful for you or me doesn't mean it's not useful for others...
But, what is your point exactly ? It is not really clear.
You argue a lot, but you haven't a single good argument in favor of your ideas. In fact I'm wondering if anyone here (including you) know what you're trying to demonstrate.
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:23pm
| bob_seb wrote: |
| andkon2 wrote: |
http://www.mozdev.org/projects.html
Those are all the projects right? Okay now let's see here. You said mozdev projects are thanks to Mozilla. Well, yeah. They are all plugins or some sort of addons to Mozilla. There are VERY VERY FEW non-Mozilla dependant app (that are useful).
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Well, the fact that something isn't useful for you or me doesn't mean it's not useful for others...
But, what is your point exactly ? It is not really clear.
You argue a lot, but you haven't a single good argument in favor of your ideas. In fact I'm wondering if anyone here (including you) know what you're trying to demonstrate.
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What am I trying to prove? That Mozilla isnt for the "community." It makes a browser that is mediocre (and even unpromoted) for 95% of the web (the 95% that is competative as far as software goes).
http://www.mozdev.org/logs/top50.html proves me ever so right. 30.79% of the pageviews of the projects were for THEMES??? Is that the biggest problem Mozilla has??? Themes??? The last time I checked, a browser without "nice" appearance but still works rules over one that looks pretty but has deep faults. It is no wonder that people in the win/mac have not switched over to Gecko. It isnt worth the download. How sad that is. Crappy as IE is, Gecko doesnt have enought steam for people to give 10MB worth of trust (or a damn bloated 30MB if you are talking about Netscape)...
I am bound to ask, what the hell is Mozilla's goal? Standards are obviously not as big as they used to be as IE is now supporting them (somewhat but satisfactorily). "Community" I have now shown is certainly not a goal either.
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:25pm
What exactly are these major flaws your talking about?, and as for a sense of "community" you only have to read these forums to see what people are getting out of mozilla.
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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:26pm
You're so full of crap.
Phoenix is great, and is used by lots of end-users already. I personally don't like SeaMonkey because I think it's bloated. That's exactly why I love Phoenix. And I'm doing my part to help the project go mainstream. What exactly is your definition of an end-user product? Would you consider a freeware FTP client an end-user product? Even though the author doesn't provide support, it's used by a lot of end-users if it's good.
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:36pm
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
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What exactly are these major flaws your talking about?, and as for a sense of "community" you only have to read these forums to see what people are getting out of mozilla.
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HELLO! Earth to disillusioned Mozilla fan...
Guess what kind of people use these forums? Those who are really really liking Mozilla. How much has Gecko/Netscape browser share increased in the last 5 years? What, it decreased? By community I mean the entire group of web users, not just developers who get a kick out having a project to work on.
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:37pm
Well what other type of community is there? I would imagine the 4835 registered users of this forum cant all be devs. And the user stats for web browsers is unbalanced by how IE is distrobuted.
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andkon2
Troll
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:43pm
| djst wrote: |
You're so full of crap.
Phoenix is great, and is used by lots of end-users already. I personally don't like SeaMonkey because I think it's bloated. That's exactly why I love Phoenix. And I'm doing my part to help the project go mainstream. What exactly is your definition of an end-user product? Would you consider a freeware FTP client an end-user product? Even though the author doesn't provide support, it's used by a lot of end-users if it's good.
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Lots of endusers? Any stats on how many Phoenix browsers have been downloaded by any chance? Certainly not too many to make a giant dent in the IE dominated landscape.
And end-user product is "the ultimate consumer of a product, especially the one for whom the product has been designed." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=end-user
The question is, who is the ultimate consumer? Is your definition of community inclusive of all web users or just those who are in some way above the rest (developers, etc.)? If its just developers, dont ever dream of Gecko ever making progress over IE's 90+% browser share. Of course, it's quite unrealistic then to think that a product which is not made for mainstream users will exceed a quite mainstream browser.
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