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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Sun 2nd Mar 2003 3:46am
| www.dumbass.com wrote: |
| marc00s wrote: |
You tell me that adware is free?
How old are you? 
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Yes. I can download it. It has all the same exact features but there is an ad in the corner. Stop playing with the words and face the music. Namely, Mozilla has less features than Opera. Namely, Mozilla/Netscape/etc are less user friendly than Opera.
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So go and use Opera instead of whining about it here. We care about what you think as little as you care about what we think, Andras.
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 3:37am
This guys all about advertising his website that all (I mean how many times do you have to link to some pictures that have been manipulated in a not so comic way), I have used opera 6 and 7 and I can?t really see much of a great benefit in ownership. I have taken to using Phoenix as it?s clean and simple to use, opera 7 has stupidly large menu systems, and from what I saw in the beta of 7 a not to impressive mail client.
As for his points about Mozilla being owned by Netscape, what the difference with Opera? You have about the same level of input with bug fixes etc, and Opera is definitely owned by a company.
To say that Mozilla is not open source is a joke in that you can download the code, unlike Opera. Also there are many different offshoots of the tree such as Mac browsers and Phoenix, Galeon neither of which benefits Netscape (if you look at the cost of development).
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Phoenix
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andkon
Troll
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 11:15am
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
This guys all about advertising his website that all (I mean how many times do you have to link to some pictures that have been manipulated in a not so comic way), I have used opera 6 and 7 and I can?t really see much of a great benefit in ownership. I have taken to using Phoenix as it?s clean and simple to use, opera 7 has stupidly large menu systems, and from what I saw in the beta of 7 a not to impressive mail client.
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Boy, you saw thru that clever plan. That way, I can make thousands of dollars when people click on my ads. I think you are in line for an dumbass Award. Claim proudly and frame it: http://www.dumbass.com/award.jpg
Oh yeah BTW... If you dont like the large buttons in Opera, remove a few or change the skin for small buttons. Not too hard I would presume but then again its a bit more complicated than the Netscape 2.x layout of Mozilla with half-baked tabs.
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As for his points about Mozilla being owned by Netscape, what the difference with Opera? You have about the same level of input with bug fixes etc, and Opera is definitely owned by a company.
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ummm okay. Opera is the company. As opposed to Mozilla.org being all too overly affiliated with Netscape/AOLTW. And no you actually don't. A Netscape employee (search for him on usenet, J Betak) told me 85% of Mozilla comes from Netscape paid employees.
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To say that Mozilla is not open source is a joke in that you can download the code, unlike Opera. Also there are many different offshoots of the tree such as Mac browsers and Phoenix, Galeon neither of which benefits Netscape (if you look at the cost of development).
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The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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bob_seb
Mozilla Fanatic
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Lyon, France
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 11:36am
| dumbass wrote: |
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
To say that Mozilla is not open source is a joke in that you can download the code, unlike Opera. Also there are many different offshoots of the tree such as Mac browsers and Phoenix, Galeon neither of which benefits Netscape (if you look at the cost of development).
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The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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Let's count :
SeaMonkey - OK, this the vanilla Mozilla
Phoenix (or whatever its new name is)
Phoenix Black diamond edition
Mozilla Black diamond edition
K-meleon
Netscape
Compuserve (last version)
AOL for Mac (last version)
Camino
wKiosk
wKids
wDesk
Total : 11 without counting vanilla Mozilla
I need 3 hands... but maybe you're a mutant ?
P.S.: Please return to your cave
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andkon
Troll
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 1:10pm
| bob_seb wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
To say that Mozilla is not open source is a joke in that you can download the code, unlike Opera. Also there are many different offshoots of the tree such as Mac browsers and Phoenix, Galeon neither of which benefits Netscape (if you look at the cost of development).
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The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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Let's count :
SeaMonkey - OK, this the vanilla Mozilla
Phoenix (or whatever its new name is)
Phoenix Black diamond edition
Mozilla Black diamond edition
K-meleon
Netscape
Compuserve (last version)
AOL for Mac (last version)
Camino
wKiosk
wKids
wDesk
Total : 11 without counting vanilla Mozilla
I need 3 hands... but maybe you're a mutant ?
P.S.: Please return to your cave
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Here is a new list of FREE and unique versions of browsers (not just plugins added or entire products which just use some part of Mozilla):
SeaMonkey - OK, this the vanilla Mozilla
Phoenix
K-meleon
Netscape
Camino
Yep that's five browsers which are open for all to use in Win and Mac platforms. God job. Five years and you have Mozilla, of course that actually doesnt count since it's not for end-users. Phoenix isnt either. Netscape is a huge bloated ad crap. And then the only two we have left are Camino/Chimera and Kmeleon. Wow. Amazing. Shudder. Two browsers...
PS Don't worry, some big shot Mozillazine admin will delete this message/my username. Appearantly open voices in open source is a no-no.
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djst
He may like Phoenix, but we're not sure.
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 1:13pm
| dumbass wrote: |
| bob_seb wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
| Jeff_pony wrote: |
To say that Mozilla is not open source is a joke in that you can download the code, unlike Opera. Also there are many different offshoots of the tree such as Mac browsers and Phoenix, Galeon neither of which benefits Netscape (if you look at the cost of development).
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The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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Let's count :
SeaMonkey - OK, this the vanilla Mozilla
Phoenix (or whatever its new name is)
Phoenix Black diamond edition
Mozilla Black diamond edition
K-meleon
Netscape
Compuserve (last version)
AOL for Mac (last version)
Camino
wKiosk
wKids
wDesk
Total : 11 without counting vanilla Mozilla
I need 3 hands... but maybe you're a mutant ?
P.S.: Please return to your cave
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Here is a new list of FREE and unique versions of browsers (not just plugins added or entire products which just use some part of Mozilla):
SeaMonkey - OK, this the vanilla Mozilla
Phoenix
K-meleon
Netscape
Camino
Yep that's five browsers which are open for all to use in Win and Mac platforms. God job. Five years and you have Mozilla, of course that actually doesnt count since it's not for end-users. Phoenix isnt either. Netscape is a huge bloated ad crap. And then the only two we have left are Camino/Chimera and Kmeleon. Wow. Amazing. Shudder. Two browsers...
PS Don't worry, some big shot Mozillazine admin will delete this message/my username. Appearantly open voices in open source is a no-no.
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Add Galeon to your list of free Mozilla-based browsers.
Where did you read that Phoenix is not for end-users?
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Alex Bishop
MozillaZine Admin
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 484
Location: Canterbury, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 1:28pm
| dumbass wrote: |
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A Netscape employee (search for him on usenet, J Betak) told me 85% of Mozilla comes from Netscape paid employees.
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You're right. We should get mozilla.org to insist that Netscape drastically reduce their contributions to the Mozilla codebase. We can't possibly have them donating so much free code.
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 1:51pm
| dumbass wrote: |
The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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Heh. Can I play this 'use arbitary, irrelevant, pieces of data and then place further restrictions on that data ('caus even though I picked the question, the answer doesn't actually support my point') to try and prove some conclusion' game? I think I might like it, but I better play quickly before Kerz decides to kill your account again. Let's see...
How many Web browsers does Opera make for the Mac?
How many Mac users actually use that browser?
How many Opera based browsers will there be in 1 year's time now there are a selection of worthwhile OSX browsers?
I think I found questions that fit all your criteria. Will you give me one of your special awards?
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bob_seb
Mozilla Fanatic
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Lyon, France
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 2:29pm
| dumbass wrote: |
Here is a new list of FREE and unique versions of browsers (not just plugins added or entire products which just use some part of Mozilla):
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You didn't mention restrictions about the browsers except that they must be Mozilla based... I named 11 browsers matching you're first conditions, so I prouved there were more than 5. What's wrong with that ? I think it's an AXIOMATIC PROOF, and you can do nothing against that, because axiomatically 11 > 5.
(Look how it's easy to turn around nowhere to claim something entirely silly, like you always do)
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andkon
Troll
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 5:32pm
| Quote: |
Add Galeon to your list of free Mozilla-based browsers.
Where did you read that Phoenix is not for end-users?
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Galeon isnt for Mac/Win. You know that small majority of 95% of web users. You know the two platforms which actually have competition that mandates building up to par as far as browsers go.
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/ doenst looks to user friendly too me...
"For your testing pleasure"
"Phoenix build instructions"
"We track bugs using Bugzilla"
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andkon
Troll
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 5:39pm
| jgraham wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
The joke is exactly that. You can download it and try to make your own browser. Now of course, i can count the number of Mozilla-based browser for win and mac (95% of all webusers) with one hand.
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Heh. Can I play this 'use arbitary, irrelevant, pieces of data and then place further restrictions on that data ('caus even though I picked the question, the answer doesn't actually support my point') to try and prove some conclusion' game? I think I might like it, but I better play quickly before Kerz decides to kill your account again. Let's see...
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Yes, 95% of web users is quite arbitrary, huh? Perhaps Mozilla is just afraid of the competition and that's why it's not spread around as much in the Win/Mac arena. I can understand. I mean NN6/7 was a big flop. And the flop wasnt just do the fact that Netscape has ad-icons and spam basically.
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How many Web browsers does Opera make for the Mac?
How many Mac users actually use that browser?
How many Opera based browsers will there be in 1 year's time now there are a selection of worthwhile OSX browsers?
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Ummm okay. I dont see how it's arbitrary to ask what Mozilla.org has in store for the overwhelming majority (95%) of web users but whatever. It's great to be proud that Mozilla is in charge of unknown/other OS's, but why not try competeting in the top two OS's?... I count 2 browsers. But even counting Mozilla and Phoenix gives only 4.
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I think I found questions that fit all your criteria. Will you give me one of your special awards?
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No, awards are only given if you imply something about me that is completely wrong and I even have it written down somewhere. For example, if you would start arguing that Texaco has a red star... BLAH... you would recieve the dumbass Award.
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andkon
Troll
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 5:43pm
| bob_seb wrote: |
| dumbass wrote: |
Here is a new list of FREE and unique versions of browsers (not just plugins added or entire products which just use some part of Mozilla):
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You didn't mention restrictions about the browsers except that they must be Mozilla based... I named 11 browsers matching you're first conditions, so I prouved there were more than 5. What's wrong with that ? I think it's an AXIOMATIC PROOF, and you can do nothing against that, because axiomatically 11 > 5.
(Look how it's easy to turn around nowhere to claim something entirely silly, like you always do)
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Plugins and other extras do not count because then every version of Mozilla so far could then count as a separate version (1.3a, 1.3b, 1.2.1, etc).
The point with this is that Mozilla does not offer up to par software for 95% of web users. Imagine Mozilla/Mozilla-based-offsprinf without tabs and you have nothing. Great five years work though. (Say, those Opera fellows could do tabs and a whole new browser in a single year... Imagine that....)
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kerz
MozillaZine Admin
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 100
Location: Mountain View, CA
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Posted: Mon 10th Mar 2003 9:38pm
Sigh, we did this once. Don't come back until you can learn to listen to what people are saying, and actually debate without invoking nazis or communism. Until then, you're done here. Have a nice day, please drive through!
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 12:00am
(Incidentally, you all seem to have forgotten Beonex)
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Jeff_pony
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Norwich, England
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Posted: Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:21am
Who cares I won an award! Shame he wont show his face in the picture though, I guess its because he?s so sure of his convictions.
I still can?t really see what this guys so upset about. So ok Mozilla get some code from paid Netscape employees, well opera gets all its code from paid opera employees so what  . I can only imagine he?s trying to infer that through this code Netscape gains some sort of control over the development. Ok if that is a fact I cant really see what the problem is, there has to be some direction in the project and so far I haven?t found anything that I would say was subversive in any shape or form in how the browser works.
I will admit that I use Phoenix and not Mozilla (last time was around ver 1.1) so I guess there might be some sort of design to it that cry?s out Netscape dominance, but so far I haven?t.
I can see the advantage of Netscape using Mozilla, its a free utilization of programmers and so they get a product for a dramatically reduced price, I mean who wouldn?t use that system? Linux is based on that system and it works well, but companies still stand to make money from the code, which they themselves have invested time in.
What you have to remember is that whole concept runs on the idea of free software, Mozilla might not be very good in your eyes but its 100% free. Opera is as well but you do have to have an ad banner, but if you can live with that then good.
To say that you don?t have any input into the shaping of the code is unfair also; you only have to look in the build sections of this website for any of the projects to see how bugs arise and are fixed. There is user input whether you want to see it or not.
Anyway I hope I can get another award because my collection is small at the moment, I have prepared a speech for its acceptance which might contain some crying and references to how I couldn?t be here without the help of my family.
P.S You can have Galeon on a mac if you install the power PC version of Linux  .
P.P.S Phoenix is still in development, hence why the website looks how it does. But to be honest its worked damn well for me so far, cheers Devs;).
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Last edited by Jeff_pony on Tue 11th Mar 2003 3:52am; edited 3 times in total
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