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www.andkon.com
Troll
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Sat 1st Mar 2003 4:32pm Repulsive Pic #2!
Mozilla.org's art looks really bad, in the sense of "100 million people dead" bad. But here's something better (no it's not my swastika perspective-parody) but an old USSR banner WITH mozilla. check out the new updated http://www.*poof*.com/stuf/mozillapics/
Yes, that wasnt made by me. How can you now argue that Mozilla's artwork isnt communist when the artist of that artwork says: "Mozilla is as Communist as Stalin" and "Communism is what Mozilla is, whether do you want it or or not. " If you want the email forwarded to you, be my guest and ask. Although you can catch other blatant statements at netscape.public.mozilla.general
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Sat 1st Mar 2003 5:11pm
Please, please, for your own sake stop engaging is such public displays of stupidity. Either that or you're making a poor attempt at satire. Because, at the moment you're just embarassing yourself. So, lets see, a communist has drawn a picture using the Mozilla logo with a splash screen based on Soviet imagery? So? I believe there's a lot of people in Russia who have, at least initially, suffered under capatalism, and who feel they were better off under the Communist government. Other people may simply have a different ideology to you. In any case, I don't see how this has anything to do with Mozilla. Maybe you would like to provide a source for the quote Communism is what Mozilla is, whether do you want it or or not. ? Of course that won't make it any more true. For example, I can provide you with lots of evidence (and probably pictures) that Britney Spears is lesbian. Does this wealth of 'evidence' make it any more true? No of course not. It might be true or it might not (I really don't care about Ms Spears' sexuality; I mainly try to avoid hearing her songs).
I'm not sure where you inherited your grudge against Mozilla, but please think for a second before you come out with any more mindless ranting. It's a piece of software. Not a political statement, of any sort. You download the binaries or the source, compile it if necessary, run it and you can browse the internet, send email and lots of other such useful things. In addition, you are allowed to view and change the source to your own needs. That source is lisenced in such a way as to make it attractive to companies, allowing them to distribute proprietry products based on the code without releasing their modifcations to the public. This is a lot less political than something like emacs, which is only avaliable under the GPL.
Please don't start me on your history. You are right that Stalinism was responsible for torture and death, but this is a common theme through history past and present. Capitalism, or any other political system is also resposible for suffering so a simple communism=stalinism=bad manifeso is plain wrong.
Again, you're making yourself look stupid. I advise you to stop.
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www.andkon.com
Troll
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 21
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Posted: Sat 1st Mar 2003 8:26pm
| jgraham wrote: |
Please, please, for your own sake stop engaging is such public displays of stupidity. Either that or you're making a poor attempt at satire. Because, at the moment you're just embarassing yourself. So, lets see, a communist has drawn a picture using the Mozilla logo with a splash screen based on Soviet imagery? So? I believe there's a lot of people in Russia who have, at least initially, suffered under capatalism, and who feel they were better off under the Communist government. Other people may simply have a different ideology to you. In any case, I don't see how this has anything to do with Mozilla. Maybe you would like to provide a source for the quote Communism is what Mozilla is, whether do you want it or or not. ? Of course that won't make it any more true. For example, I can provide you with lots of evidence (and probably pictures) that Britney Spears is lesbian. Does this wealth of 'evidence' make it any more true? No of course not. It might be true or it might not (I really don't care about Ms Spears' sexuality; I mainly try to avoid hearing her songs).
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So then it's just all a big accident that Mozilla uses artwork that many have convinced themselves is cool due to their warped sense of what communism was? Tell you what, if you can find out what inspired Mozilla.org's artwork, I'll leave you all alone.
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I'm not sure where you inherited your grudge against Mozilla, but please think for a second before you come out with any more mindless ranting. It's a piece of software. Not a political statement, of any sort. You download the binaries or the source, compile it if necessary, run it and you can browse the internet, send email and lots of other such useful things. In addition, you are allowed to view and change the source to your own needs. That source is lisenced in such a way as to make it attractive to companies, allowing them to distribute proprietry products based on the code without releasing their modifcations to the public. This is a lot less political than something like emacs, which is only avaliable under the GPL.
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It began with the artwork. The first thing I noticed about Mozilla.
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Please don't start me on your history. You are right that Stalinism was responsible for torture and death, but this is a common theme through history past and present. Capitalism, or any other political system is also resposible for suffering so a simple communism=stalinism=bad manifeso is plain wrong.
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Communism is bad because of reasons discussed, same with Stalinism, same withe Communist Manifesto. I never said they are equal or one is bad because of the other. Stop the misunderstanding of that.
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Again, you're making yourself look stupid. I advise you to stop.
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I beg to disagree. To date, no one, apart from me, has found artwork that resembles Mozilla.org's. Either it was all an accident that Mozilla.org resembles communistic artwork or there is another genre of art that looks like communism, or it is based on communism. If it is based on communism do to whatever reasons (I quite frankly then dont care), then I suggest replacing the crap.
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schapel
Mozilla Addict
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 93
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Posted: Sat 1st Mar 2003 9:05pm
I actually don't mind the anti-Mozilla trolls. They just make themselves look stupid. But the pro-Mozilla trolls make the whole Mozilla community look stupid, especially when their trolls are tolerated. Send them all to Siberia, I say! 
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amr
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Indiana, USA
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 6:35am
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
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Tell you what, if you can find out what inspired Mozilla.org's artwork, I'll leave you all alone.
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Tell you what, if you can start posting stuff that doesn't bore the living hell out of me, I'll start reading it, instead of wearing my mouse wheel out on you, like I do now.
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bim
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 131
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 7:55am
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
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It began with the artwork. The first thing I noticed about Mozilla.
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OK, so if I get this right, you saw that a browser heavily sponsored by AOL/TW (a big commercial company which, I think most people would agree to, is as much communist as ... euhm ... you) was using a style of graphics for their website, that resembled a style that was rather popular in communist russia. And out of did you concluded that the browser was promoting communism and that it was a bloated browser?
Can't argue with that! 
Sorry, I'm trying to be funny but I'm not doing a really good job so on a more serious subject:
If the first impression of Mozilla had been one with American stars and stripes, would you have loved the browser?
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 12:24pm
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
So then it's just all a big accident that Mozilla uses artwork that many have convinced themselves is cool due to their warped sense of what communism was? Tell you what, if you can find out what inspired Mozilla.org's artwork, I'll leave you all alone.
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An accident? No, of course not. But you're making an awful simplifcation in assuming that using a style assosiated with propoganda posters (especially those of communist origin) necessarily implies a support for the cause. For a start, all propoganda posters (especially those from the first half of the century) share some common themes ans styles. For example British World War I posters show a remarkable similarity to some of the Mozilla artwork, in particular the use of rousing slogans. But clearly, the Mozilla artwork uses some motifs taken fromcommunist
posters in particular.
So how can I explain this, whilst refuting the idea that all Mozilla developers are communist? Well, assuming there is any symbolic meaning in the style at all, I think that a more likely explaination lies with the perception of open-source software among businesses. Often businesses are wary of open source and it's development ideals. For example Microsoft, one of Netscapes biggest competitors (and interestingly the competitor to whom they lost the 'browser war') recently described the GPL as 'viral'. This in itself is a propoganda campain by a business looking to protect it's own self interest by spreading fear and doubt through it's customer base. These tactics can be likened to the anti-communist propoganda, leading to fear, spread in America during the cold war. In this sense the parallels between the cold war and software licensing can be seen - both sides spread fear and mistrust about the other among their own supporters. So, from this point of view, communist imagery in the logos can be seen as an elaborate joke - pointing out to us in an amusing way the negative perception and even paranoia that many individuals and, businesses have of community based, open source software, by comparing it to anti-communist paranoia. This doesn't reflect an underlying belief that communism was right and America was wrong, but it does take a more balanced view of history and the role of propoganda in manipulating the public view than you seem to have.
Of course this 'explaination' is just as fabricated as yours is. Maybe the most likely reason is just that the artist liked the style, saw a parallel betwen open source software development and a community based political ideology and so drew some artwork in that style. Personally I rather like the images, although I have no particular communist leanings, and certianly abhor the loss of life suffered my many undeserving people under Stalin.
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It began with the artwork. The first thing I noticed about Mozilla.
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And yet you've never managed get past that; to look beyond these few pictures that were drawn several years ago, and actually try the program? Out of interest, have you ever tried Mozilla, or a product based on it? It's free  .
I don't understand why you waste your time writing essays about the evils of Mozilla (or specifically it's artwork) when there are so many better things to do in life. I seem to remember you use Opera? That's fine (maybe you'd like to tell the Opera people how disappointing it is that 7.02 has gone down the emulate IE in the name of increased marketshare route ), but I don't see why doing so means you have write long essays about how evil the competition is, regardless of the artwork.
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Communism is bad because of reasons discussed, same with Stalinism, same withe Communist Manifesto. I never said they are equal or one is bad because of the other. Stop the misunderstanding of that.
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I don't think communism, of itself, mandates killing millions of people. I haven't read Das Kapital, but maybe you should, since you seem interested in these things. As far as I am aware, the theory behind the system was to reduce the artifical distinction between people based on wealth and so decrease suffering. As it happens, human nature doesn't allow for that, which is quite sad really, so in practice communisim is a bad idea. Many other political systems are bad too; capitalism can give too much power to profit motivated companies, for example. So pure, unregulated, capatalism would be a bad idea. But what has this got to do with the quality of web browsers?
[quote]
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Again, you're making yourself look stupid. I advise you to stop.
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I beg to disagree. To date, no one, apart from me, has found artwork that resembles Mozilla.org's. .
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But you look stupid focussing on the art work and making such a simplistic connection between this and some propoganda iinspired, unbalanced hatred of communism. In this sense, you seem to be just like the companies who have a fear of open source software because they have listened to too much propoganda by parties with a strong interest in retaining a closed source system. You've also gone out of your way to create new Mozilla based images and then tried to use then to stengthen your point, when in fact they weaken it. It also seems like a tremendous waste of time.
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 12:27pm
And before anyone complains: I know that's a long post, but it was quite fun to write. And yes, I do have better things to do...
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wget
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 364
Location: Denmark
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 3:16pm Re: Repulsive Pic #2!
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
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How can you now argue that Mozilla's artwork isnt communist when the artist of that artwork says: "Mozilla is as Communist as Stalin" and "Communism is what Mozilla is, whether do you want it or or not."
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Ahaha. You are gimmick, right? ... Right?!
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bob_seb
Mozilla Fanatic
Joined: 05 Nov 2002
Posts: 38
Location: Lyon, France
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 4:14pm
| jgraham wrote: |
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And before anyone complains: I know that's a long post, but it was quite fun to write. And yes, I do have better things to do...
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Good posts are never long . It was well argumented and interesting, so I'll said it was a good one  .
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www.andkon.com
Troll
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 21
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 6:58pm
[quote="bim"]
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
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It began with the artwork. The first thing I noticed about Mozilla.
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| Quote: |
OK, so if I get this right, you saw that a browser heavily sponsored by AOL/TW (a big commercial company which, I think most people would agree to, is as much communist as ... euhm ... you) was using a style of graphics for their website, that resembled a style that was rather popular in communist russia. And out of did you concluded that the browser was promoting communism and that it was a bloated browser?
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You are a moron, you get an award: http://www.*poof*.com/award.jpg
The little you understand about communism and related doesnt surprise me, but try reading http://www.*poof*.com/stuf/mozilla3/
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Can't argue with that!
Sorry, I'm trying to be funny but I'm not doing a really good job so on a more serious subject:
If the first impression of Mozilla had been one with American stars and stripes, would you have loved the browser?
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You are once again a moron. I am not a right-wing American. I am not originally from American even, dumbass, you get another award: http://www.*poof*.com/award.jpg ... where could you have easily found that out? http://www.*poof*.com/stuf/summer2002/
Your stupidity and eagerness to make assumptions amazes me.
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www.andkon.com
Troll
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 21
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 7:00pm
| jgraham wrote: |
| www.*poof*.com wrote: |
So then it's just all a big accident that Mozilla uses artwork that many have convinced themselves is cool due to their warped sense of what communism was? Tell you what, if you can find out what inspired Mozilla.org's artwork, I'll leave you all alone.
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An accident? No, of course not. But you're making an awful simplifcation in assuming that using a style assosiated with propoganda posters (especially those of communist origin) necessarily implies a support for the cause. For a start, all propoganda posters (especially those from the first half of the century) share some common themes ans styles. For example British World War I posters show a remarkable similarity to some of the Mozilla artwork, in particular the use of rousing slogans. But clearly, the Mozilla artwork uses some motifs taken fromcommunist
posters in particular.
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Since when did I say that since Mozilla uses communist imageries that is communist? Please read http://www.*poof*.com/stuf/mozilla3/
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schapel
Mozilla Addict
Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 93
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Posted: Tue 4th Mar 2003 7:05pm And the rastacapitation prizewinner is...
[quote="bim"]
The first thing I saw in your post was that garbage. You are a moron and get the rastacapitation prize! picture removed. (for *poof* only!) 
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jgraham
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Posted: Wed 5th Mar 2003 12:13am
In the underlying assumption throughout that piece that using graphics in a particular style shows a support for the ideas behind the original use of the style. Otherwise the idea that using the images is offensive, the main thread of (part of) the essay, is laughable. This is what I object to. For example you wouldn't complain if people poked fun at communism by careful satire of its imagery. So why then do you object to artwork in which the traditional position of the leader figure has been replaced by a red cartoon dinosaur? I suspect this could offenbd some (but, by your previous example, clearly not all) communists, just as much as it offends you for the opposite reason.
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scragz
Mozilla Aficionado
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 158
Location: California
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Posted: Wed 5th Mar 2003 12:34am Re: And the rastacapitation prizewinner is...
| schapel wrote: |
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The first thing I saw in your post was that garbage. You are a moron and get the rastacapitation prize! picture removed. (for *poof* only!)
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Now that's a real repulsive pic.
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